[E.30] Being Bold, Spotting Bias, & Asking The Important Questions with LaToya Burrell

LaToya Burell is the author of Be Bold: How to Prepare Your Heart And Mind For Racial Reconciliation.
In this episode of the Restoring The Day podcast LaToya chats with Susan, diving into the fascinating story of how she wrote the book, tells stories of her own experiences of microaggressions and examples of bias, and helps unpack the way forward by answering some of the hardest questions that have come to the conversation about race, especially in recent years.

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Susan Shannon 0:00

In this episode, I have an amazing conversation with author of be bold, how to prepare your heart and mind for racial reconciliation. It's an amazing book, you guys, and I personally have had the privilege of rubbing shoulders with Latoya this year. And I need you to stay tuned until the end of the episode because we're actually going to do some amazing giveaways. And I want to make sure you don't miss out. So stick around. I'm Susan Shannon, and you're listening to the restoring the day podcast.

This podcast is a collection of stories and experiences from people, unafraid, and unashamed to stand up and make a big impact in their communities. There are people who have rolled up their sleeves and they're getting messy sharing their wins, their losses, and their powerful experiences with us right here in these conversations. It is my hope and vision that listening to these courageous conversations, helps you feel empowered and equipped, and even educated and encouraged to get out there and show the world your own magic as well. Hey, guys, welcome back. I am on a call with Latoya Burrell. Today, I just completed reading her book, here in 2021. And into this year in 2022. Wow, this is my first guest interview in 2022. That's exciting. So that's very cool. But Latoya is the author of be bold, how to prepare your heart and mind for rake racial reconciliation. This is an amazing book. She actually is right here in Minneapolis, Twin Cities. So we're local here together. So this is so fun to be able to rub shoulders a little bit in different communities. And when I picked up this book, literally, I was so excited to read it because I knew it was going to be good. And it was even better than I expected it to be. So I can't wait to have this conversation with you. I'm going to give you the platform and you share who you are and where you are in the world. And what got you excited to write this book.

LaToya Burrell 2:10

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Susan, for having me as a guest today, as well as for the kind compliments about my book, I am evolving as a person. So it's so funny. I feel like when I get that question of Tell me about yourself, and who are you? And I think I have to be intentional about that question. Because I do wear a lot of hats. As you and I were chatting before actually beginning the recording. I am a mother. And right now when you have younger kids, my kids are both under the age of 10. So they are a priority. And so much of what I do is driven by what they need. And so I wear many hats. You know, I like to say I'm a daughter, I'm a sister, I'm a wife, I'm a friend. But I'm a mother. So that is something that truly truly drives me and even talking about my book. I think a lot of what inspired me to write the book was the fact that I heard George Floyd call for his mother. So people talk about the fact that the murder of George Floyd and how it may have impacted you one way or another. And for me, what made it so personal, was being the mother of two little boys who grew up to be two black boys to black men, right? And it just hit me in a different way. And that is what inspired me to write people.

Susan Shannon 3:34

And you talk about that right away in the beginning of your book, which is amazing. So awesome to hear you talk about that. One thing I want to do right off the bat is jumps out at me is you start talking right away in the beginning of the book about how you never saw yourself as being the spokesperson. You never saw yourself as being the one doing the educating and being on the front lines. And this book is highly educational. It's it's so well written and so informative. And you talk about a little in the book. So without getting too many spoilers. Give us a sneak peek into when did that shift for you? When did that go from? Oh, it's not supposed to be me to Oh, it's me.

LaToya Burrell 4:17

Yeah, so I had that cliche If not me, then who? And if not now then when moment. And I'm from Louisiana. I moved to Minneapolis in 2013. So I had people calling me from all across the country. People who maybe I went to college with are who I grew up with in Louisiana. And when Minneapolis was front and center on the the national platform. I think people will remember it. Oh, I think Latoya lives there are the people family members, so everyone was calling and checking on me. And the trend was my friends and previous coworkers were considered to be friends as well when they were checking on me If they didn't look like me, the question was, What can I do? How can I help? How can I be your ally? How can I be a resource? And I just naturally found myself saying, you could examine yourself in your heart. But we all could do that. You can listen, you can learn, you can use your privilege, your platform, your resources, I kept saying those same things over and over again. And then I would get the question of do you know, any resources like what would you recommend? Or just having the candid discussions about certain questions like, well, I don't, it's such an odd feeling. And I'm not racist. I don't believe that I'm racist. Or it may have been just a quite a discussion about the protesting rioting, looting, you know, and people's perceptions or perspectives about that. And I found myself having sincere discussions about the Black Lives Matter, or all lives matter, rioting versus protesting, or why protest because it doesn't work. Or why are we still talking about race? Aren't we post racial, those things kept trending. So I started out by saying, I just want to be able to have a response, and help my community along on this journey. And then I found myself writing and reminds you, we were in the middle of the pandemic, also. And at the time, my youngest son was not even two yet. And I found the writing to be an outlet for me. So I had a guy who I know who he posted something on social media, and he's a writer. And he wrote when I'm drowning in emotion, and emotions, writing is my life ref. And I said, it's like a lightbulb moment. That is what's happening for me, because we're in the house. 24/7, like, at this point, we were maybe like three or four months into the pandemic. This is where we weren't going anywhere. Like we were locked down. And my therapy was writing, I just would release it. Right. Right. That's, that's what I was doing. I was waking up in the middle of the night to write Wow, in sleep 2am Can't sleep, just get my laptop out and start writing.

Susan Shannon 7:22

Yeah. That that kind of start happening before this. The idea for this book came as well, too.

LaToya Burrell 7:30

It did. So I found myself getting up writing. And this is the thing. You know, you meet some people, I've met people who are like, I want to write a book, or they're telling people I'm writing a book. For me. I didn't tell anyone until I was halfway through. Like I literally would get up in the middle of the night. And my husband, my house wouldn't even know like the house was quiet. I'd get up, it became a trend, our rate between 2am and 6am. Wow, get up, I couldn't sleep. And then at 6am, I maybe would go back to bed for like an hour, and I'd be refreshed for the entire day. Well, with this is what happened. I joke about it. We were watching Governor waltz on just the news. And my husband was like, gosh, I just couldn't imagine having to be him at this point. He was like between the COVID numbers, the pressure, the political pressure, the social unrest, everything. He said he's gonna retire and he's gonna write a book about it. Yeah. And I snuck in. What do you think about people writing books? And he said, Well, if you have something to say when right and I said, Well, what would you say if I told you that I was writing a book? And I'm pretty far along. And his response was, Well, my question would be when in the world? Have you had time to write a book, or homeschooling? You don't have daycare right now? And so then I started to tell him about it. And I don't know what I thought his response would be. And he was just like, that's great. You should keep doing it.

Susan Shannon 9:03

Oh, wow. He had no idea.

LaToya Burrell 9:07

He said he had no idea. I haven't told anyone.

Susan Shannon 9:11

That is one of the most incredibly fabulous story. You just, um, I guess I'm doing this thing. you'd wake up and there you go before you know you're halfway through. Wow. To me, the word that comes to mind is inspiration. I guess, because it seemed like, it seems like it was you were the one meant to read this book. And it just there it was, it was right there. And it's amazing that you said you would go back to sleep for an hour and then wake up still refreshed. Like I don't have any idea how your body did that. But

LaToya Burrell 9:41

I don't because I am not that person. I'm that person that I want every minute of sleep that is due to me. So if my alarm goes off at seven, I'm not getting up until seven or six or five or whatever time it goes off. But you know, I think that because again I had a baby he's still here. was, you know, a toddler at this point, we didn't have daycare, my oldest son was doing virtual learning, I was working, we were all working remotely. At the time. I wasn't like pretty much when we would go would go out for the grocery shopping. And then at that point of the pandemic, my husband would go, because that was at the point when we were masked up weren't everything was like down, you see what I'm saying? So I think the writing was the only time that my mind was quiet, my house was quiet. It I wasn't already doing something else. And it felt like I said, like a life raft. For me. It was an outlet for me, in a crazy time, that no one in our lifetime, no one alive has ever had ever lived through a pandemic. Yeah, you know. So that was how, I guess my mind dealt with it,

Susan Shannon 10:50

writing. Yeah. And as answers to questions that people are actually bringing to you as well, too. That's amazing. Yes. Wow, I love that story. So as quick synopsis, if you had to sum up the book, what is it and who is it for?

LaToya Burrell 11:06

You know, I think the book is for everybody who has a heart and and I will just transfer what I think sometimes we tiptoe tiptoe around race, relations and issues when in reality, it is what it is. And so when I wrote the book, at this point, I made a new one my presale, it was pre sale. And I put a comment out on Facebook, just putting it out that I had a book coming out. And a lot of my black friends and family members were like, Yes, I'm going to buy this book for all of my white friends. And, and I would say we'll get yourself a copy too. Yeah, because we this is not, it's not a white person problem. I mean, to be human, and, and it's not a United States problem, either. But if I'm going to be specific to the United States, it's for all of us. And so what inspired me was even to have my grandmother read my book, and say how much she feel that she learned, or for her to be able to reach out to me and share stories after reading my book. Hey, I had one of my aunts who's a school teacher, tell me that there was something that I said in my book that she had never, she didn't know had never heard. So like in the history section. Yeah. So I tried to be very intentional in the book. So the top 10 questions, I tried to be very intentional about educating everyone, myself included, because I learned a lot even doing all of my research to write the book. Yeah. And so I tried to be very intentional to ground where it's not just my opinion. So in responding to those questions, to grounded in previous things that have happened, that have impacted all of us here.

Susan Shannon 12:55

I thought you did that expertly to like, really, really well written, I learned so much, I would pause a lot. And if anyone was around, like, did you know that you know, because you dive into the history so thoroughly. And I feel like, even from the research that I've done, especially the past couple of years, you just do it in such a nice chronicle chronological order as well, too, in so many ways where we can go back and we can look, hey, these things have happened throughout history, especially between the blacks and the whites. And here's how this has come down today. And you also have your own experiences mixed in there, which is just beautiful, keeps the reader engaged as well, too. And the highlight of the book, possibly for a lot of people might be those 10 questions. And those 10 questions are commonly asked. I mean, we've heard so many people ask them, and I don't want to give spoilers as well, too. But basically the 10 common questions you'll hear your you'll hear people ask when it comes to this topic of why does this matter to me? Why do I need to be involved in this conversation? And you already mentioned a few of them already, because people were coming to them. And they are just so so well explained that I do think that this is a remarkable resource for like you said anybody with a heart who wants to better understand and then know what they can do better. Do you want to like outline without giving anything away? Kind of the top 10 questions in here and why did you pick these top 10 specifically,

LaToya Burrell 14:28

you know, ironically, when I was writing the book I had 13 Really? No, that might sound so cliche. So I was thinking, well, I'll just go with a 13 because of the 13th Amendment Right. Right. But then I narrowed it down like some of the 13 I merged together because just gonna like just go with 10 but it was the questions like like you said it I was commonly getting these questions, and I think that people are sincere Were there. Like, I didn't own slaves. I didn't own slaves. I wasn't a slave master. So why does this apply to me? Or, you know, we had a black president. And now added to it is we have a female and, you know, she's she's Black and Asian as well, but vice president, right? So aren't we? We're past this right? Why are we talking about this? And I can tell you when I wrote my book, it was before the January 2021 insurrection. But for me, I always say, politics is something for people to hide behind. I think that it's deeper than politics. So for me, the insurrection was a sign that are we really pose ratio, although I know someone who who would say a mini would say, well, politics and have anything to do with us being post racial or not. And I'm like, Well, for me, I think that politics is just something that people hide behind. Because they are afraid to be viewed as racist, or not being inclusive. And so, you know,

Susan Shannon 16:13

yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. As I read through the book, too, as well, I thought, you also talk a lot about, you advise people reading the book to go through it with a growth group. And that is a really neat concept, because the book has space for discussion questions that has space for reflection, and I just love that you did it that way. Can you talk about what's your vision behind when people go through this book, that growth group is the idea behind it is being able to actually go through this with friends or with a group of like minded people or a diverse group of people, and be able to actually work through some of these questions together? Can you share your vision on why you set it up that way, too.

LaToya Burrell 17:03

So my vision is to get the dialogue started. So you hear people saying things like courageous conversations, you know, that's a trend. In the DNI space, people will say things like having courageous conversations about topics that are taboo or related to some kind of diverse groups. So it could be women, it could be the LGBT community, it could be race. I personally think that when we talk about intersectionality, I tell people this if you're doing the work, it will open up your heart and mind for any minority group or any suppressed or at you know, so it could be that you're going through this process, thinking that you're opening up your heart and mind around race, when you it will open up your eye is to biases, implicit biases that you have. And so you may discover you. So you may go into a saying, I'm not a racist, and you may not be, but then you may discover that you have a bias against another gender, another religion, another socio economic status. You know, I use this example. So I do trainings, DNI trainings often, and so I have a habit of just using examples that are recent examples, and it never fails. It's always I can always tell you a new story, every time because stuff continues to happen. And so I'll tell you a story that has something that happened. This happened in like December. So where I live you there's a lot of black people that live here. There's no other way to put it. Yeah, so there had been some break ins. So I live in a community that is Townhouses and condos connected. And so you can't get into our garage unless you have a clicker. I had two incidences that happened like in the last 90 days, but the more recent one was, somebody pulled into the garage, and she didn't, she pulled in and her car gets in and she stops. So I'm just sitting there, um, I don't know why she stopped. Maybe someone's walking in front of her, I don't know. And then like, after a minute, my husband was like, what's going on? So then she finally proceeds and because the gate but it never comes down? Because she's parked there, but my sensor is picking up so it won't go down. So then she pulls in slowly, and we pull in after her and she still she stops. So then eventually, she's so so childish, but she sticks her finger middle finger at us. So then long story short, she says she was making sure that we weren't trailing her in. Hmm. But we were like, but the gate wouldn't go down because we live here. And my sensor was picking up. Well, maybe three months before that. I had an incident where a lady I, she was bolder this lady, she got out of her car and walked up to my car and asked me that I have a clicker. I'm thinking that she wants to use my clicker because there's two levels of the clip to get to the second level. But anyway, okay. He said, When I say yes, I do. And she was like, what? Can I see it? Like she police's me? Can I see it? So anyway, long story short, there's always examples, but I try to use flat examples of how it could not be race related. So I like McDonald's coffee. So I'll say things like if I come in with my McDonald's coffee, and you're a Starbucks lover, and I say that McDonald's coffee is the best coffee. However, that is a preference. But you might have a bias against me because I like McDonald's. Or I had a tough morning this morning. And I just feel like I'm drowning as a mother. And I'm a supervisor, and I get to work. And I have empathy for my direct reports who have kids. But then I have another direct report who's a single woman or a single man, and I'm giving them the work because I'm like, Well, what else do they have to do? You don't have any kids. And that's a bias. Right? And that in this seems like a not harmful bias. But the problem is when your bias or preference can become harmful. Yeah. And that's the best. Herein lies the problem. But I feel like I went down a rabbit hole to answer your question of why a group. It allows you to get different perspectives. It allows you to get those different stories and different experiences. And finally, I'll say, I've heard people say, Do you think that happened? Because you were a woman? Do you think that happened? Because you're black? Do you think that in when you get enough, like the different perspectives in stories and think it makes a difference for people?

Susan Shannon 21:52

Yeah. Wow. And actually, you tackled the next question, or the next conversation topic I had to, which was that whole concept of employment of implicit bias. That was possibly my favorite section of the book as well, too, is when you had some exercises in there, you had just full, like descriptions of what is implicit bias? Where does it come from? And how do we recognize it, and it is so practical, Latoya, I was just so it was so helpful. And I love how you said, when you get into a group as well to you, you might all come together to talk about race, but you're going to be an inclusive space and for everybody, because that's what the work that you're doing there. And I have noticed that to be so accurate, the minute you start opening up and discussing, you know, how can we really do the work in this space, it's amazing how much more open, you become a safe space for others, no matter who they are such a safer space for everyone around you. And that is a really cool observation there, too. So how I'm so excited, I know that this book has, this is your first book, obviously. And it has opened up so many neat opportunities for you to share and you've got some amazing book reviews on I saw some on Amazon, I saw some good reads. It's just so exciting to see people pick this up and work through it. One thing that we didn't touch on too much, if you want to talk a little bit about that, too, is is your background as far as your career background as well to that think that is so fascinating.

LaToya Burrell 23:40

Yes, so I tell people often, I feel like my career has been a diverse career. And when you talk about transferable skills, I believe that I am the epitome of transferable skills. So I have a law degree. I did practice law for several years. And then I transitioned from practicing law full time to higher ed. So teaching, leadership or administration at a university. And then I shifted to a corporate space do a DNI work and leading the family foundation that's associated with with the corporation. But I do think that some, like you learn certain things that are transferable. So a lot of the skills that I learned in law school. And I say this often when people will say, Well, you wrote a book, unlike law school was reading and writing. It's not hard for me to be able to research a topic. And I think, when I talked about even when I was in law school, Google was not Google, you know, things have changed. So it's a lot easier in a pandemic for me to do research, when I don't have to, like go to the library. Yeah. So I think that's it. Technology has changed the game for us. And my training was already in even when I was in higher ed. That's academic, that's research writing, reading. So I feel like it all just transitioned right along with me.

Susan Shannon 25:16

Yeah, it really, that's amazing. Because everything, you know, wherever you've been brings you here, right, and that you can see the pattern. Even I'm sure you had no idea, like you acknowledged in this book that you would ever write it. And then here it is coming out of you know, all these skills you picked up perfect. And even the pandemic, arguably as horrible as, as hard as it is. So the perfect ground grounding place for you to be able to put this out there. That's amazing.

LaToya Burrell 25:43

I always say you know that cliche when life gives you lemons make lemonade, and I'm just like, I can say a lot of things about the pandemic, but I choose to see the glass is half full. And I've seen a lot of positive change opportunities. I think it's I can see the negative, but I can't not also acknowledge the positive things that I think the pandemic have allowed us to do, discover, uncover, etc.

Susan Shannon 26:13

I agree. Yeah, I want to just encourage any of you guys listening, this, if we're coming now, we're heading into 2022 here, and it's easy for some of the experiences of our of our culture, I feel like in 2020 2021, to kind of start to feel a little bit more distant. And I feel like still picking up your book, Latoya is a great starting place to remind if we've, you know, heaven forbid, if we've all fallen off for any reason, pick it back up and start again, like keep doing the work. Because this isn't something that was a trend for a couple years, we get to keep working. And we get to keep creating these spaces of growth and, and learning and your book is an amazing tool and a resource. And, and I do, it's one that I'll have on my shelf and want to share around for years and years and years to come. So anything that you want listeners to know as well to about kind of your heart behind as they go to pick up this book.

LaToya Burrell 27:19

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, again, for the kind words about the book. You know, I tell people often if you are a person who know like the Gallup strengths, one of my Gallup strengths is harmony. And for me, I can't turn that off. It's just the core of who I am. And so I say to people, oh, use this example. When my book was with the publisher, that was probably the longest 90 days, just waiting for it to come out. And I started having honestly reservations, but just what if people take it the wrong way? Like what if my well meaning intent is, you know, taken in the wrong way. And I started reading reviews of other people who've written in the space and one of them was Robyn D'Angelo, who wrote the book white fragility. Yeah, I had read her book, I thought her book was a good book. But instead of reading her five star reviews, I read her one star reviews. And it was pretty evident to me after reading, like the 10th review, that her one star star reviews had not read her book. Wow, it was very clear to me that they got caught up with the title. And I've even had that experience where I've had someone to say another book on racism, racial record, like I don't, I'm not interested. But I'll tell you what happened. So it was someone who I don't even know him as someone who read my book. And he found me on social media, and did a book review, tagged me thanked me, and recommended to his followers that they read the book. And someone commented, and said, The problem with books like this is, and then she gave her anti. And so he basically responded and said, No, this book is not like that. And so she then again, well, she was just like, not open to it. So I responded, basically saying thank you. And I think when she recognized that it was me who wrote the book, her comments to me were, well, in full disclosure, I have not read your book, but and so if I can say to anyone who has reservations, my thing would be lean in. This could be uncomfortable, but I like to say, we dominate you don't let the discomfort dominate the space. You choose to dominate and also, it's a journey, but we all start at different points. So I've had some people who have said I'm intimidated to start because I are even with a growth group because I feel like others are further along on the journey than I am. And I say you can't let that intimidate you. You start where you are. If you're doing it with a group, they have to commit to meeting you where you are like a safe space, brave space, they have to meet you where you are. And you understand that it's a life long. It's called a journey for a reason, lifelong learning journey. I feel like I'm constantly learning and growing in this space, but it's because it's important to me. And so I'm continuing to read, listen, I'm like, we have so many read that you don't even have to just read. I'm always listening to podcasts, YouTube videos, Audible books, we have, we have no excuse,

Susan Shannon 30:36

we don't have so many resources. That is so true. Yeah. And I love that, you know, with a book like this, go through it once. If you want to before inviting your friends to go through it with you get comfortable, get kind of well rehearsed first. And then maybe you'll be the one leading the growth group, you know, have a little mini book club in your, in your home, or whatever that looks like. But I love that, you know, meet yourself where you're at and allow others to do that, for you to have that go ahead.

LaToya Burrell 31:08

It will say to your point, that growth group said has probably been my most enjoyable part of the book, the fact that I've had people to reach out to me and say, You inspired me, I mean, I get emails, I'm so grateful for it, I get emails from people who will just send like, the inquiry on my website. Or they'll find me on social media, and they'll send me a message, thanking me telling me you encouraged me to set a growth group at my job or at my church or with my family. And I've had a few who who've invited me, we're gonna we do over zoom, would you be interested in come in? Absolutely. So I've had groups that I've joined on Zoom, I've had a few where I call it the bookends, I'll join for their first session, and then I'll join for their last session. So it's just been really fun for me to see. Like, one group, one person might invite six people, and then they'll do it together as a group. And then to have a few of those six, say, Oh, I'm going to start another group. Like I did this with my friends, but I'm taking it to work. I'm starting a book club with my job or, you know, so that's been fun to see.

Susan Shannon 32:19

That is incredible. Wow. And you are amazing that you're showing up for their growth curves and being there that is, that's amazing. And, and that's only I think, going to continue as your book kind of continues to snowball, and more and more people are continuing to pick it up. Is there another book coming soon? Or is this kind

LaToya Burrell 32:39

of like, No, I would love to write another book. I feel like though the same thing that happened with this book, is it won't be me. And I tell my husband, I joke about this. I'm not going to do this because of COVID. But I always tell him a writing retreat on a cruise. Oh my God want to send me on a seven day cruise. I don't have to worry about feeding anyone. Meals are provided. I can write I can like get a deep start. Think about it as a mother. When if you were given seven days. Wow. I don't have one. Like I can't tell you a title or ETA for one. But I do plan at some point to write a second one.

Susan Shannon 33:24

Yeah, so we just got to get you on that cruise right.

LaToya Burrell 33:28

Behind us. Me on that seven day cruise.

Susan Shannon 33:31

That's right, and then stall come now. And when the timing is right, the inspiration is going to come for that one exactly like it did for this one. That's amazing. I

LaToya Burrell 33:39

truly believe.

Susan Shannon 33:40

I really do too. Yeah, I am so honored to know you. We've brushed shoulders a few times just in person as well, too. And I love your energy. I love who you are. And I can experience that through this book as well too. So everybody can pick it up. I know you can get on Amazon, right? What are the couple other favorite places to get it?

LaToya Burrell 33:59

So it's on Amazon, you can get it through my website, but it's also on Amazon and it's on Audible now as well. Okay. Oh, it is those people who are like I just I don't have time, I just want to listen on Audible I get it. I when I workout. I listen to books, so it's on Audible as well. Alright,

Susan Shannon 34:16

audible. Great. And I would personally like to order and send a copy to any of you listeners out there who want to get your hands on a copy of this book. What I would love for you to do is share that you're listening to this episode tag me and Latoya, you can share it on Facebook, share it on Instagram share that you're listening and you'll be entered to win and I would love to send a winner a copy of the bold so that you can get your hands deep into this as well too. So share away

LaToya Burrell 34:47

that comes if you read it, you're inspired and you saw the growth group. I'll come to your growth group. session so

Susan Shannon 34:56

I have goosebumps Okay guys, did you hear that? Did you hear that? So not only could you win a free copy of the toys book, just share this podcast episode, make sure you tag us both, please, I'll leave the those handles in the show notes. But then also the Toya said, if you start a growth group, she would love to attend your growth group. How cool would that be? So, super cool. Thank you so much for sharing as you listen, you guys and yeah, definitely connect. Where can people find you and hang out with you more?

LaToya Burrell 35:27

Yes. So I have my I keep my sanity. This is the wrong way to say it. I am on Instagram. So at the ball, Latoya Burrell on Instagram and my website. So I have Facebook, but my Facebook is deactivated right now. So the safe spaces the Instagram page,

Susan Shannon 35:46

yes. Okay, perfect. So that's what they can find you. And again, guys refer the show notes. We'll have that in there as well, too. Thank you so much for coming on to chat about this. Most of all, thank you for writing this book. And thank you for sharing it. And for just allowing yourself to be the spokesperson that you weren't sure was your job and you stood up and you did it. And that's just incredible. I really appreciate it.

LaToya Burrell 36:11

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.